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Post by Pleonast on Aug 9, 2012 9:20:55 GMT -8
Discussion thread for those of us in the know.
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Post by Pleonast on Aug 10, 2012 12:33:01 GMT -8
Sign ups are open now on Giraffe Board so get your pre-game comments in quick.  |
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Post by catinasuit on Aug 13, 2012 5:18:31 GMT -8
That doppelganger power on the Cabal is a little bit outrageous. High powered with a real sense of risk. It could be massive come the endgame if two or three Cabal all pick up killing powers and massacre the other sides. Not to mention object blocking as well. Could they all doppelganger the same player, if they wanted?
What happens if they pick a Wolf at Night, cancel the next Day and the Wolf is lynched. Do they escape the redirect or is it simultaneous and they get lynched instead?
I like the Witch recruit, but I really don't like the lone Freemason, it is an unfair role to anyone playing it. I can understand having it to counter the Omega Wolf, but I would probably swap it for another standard Wolf instead. The Wolves always get the short end of the stick especially with a Detective around and could do with more numbers. Also the special power is useful, but given the number of object/subject blocks may not be as useful, also given it is spoiled by the Cabal Special Power.
I like the Vampire power, but its not really helpful to them, more just a general screw around with the everyone else which could also include their own side.
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Post by Pleonast on Aug 13, 2012 9:37:01 GMT -8
Thanks for the comments.
Yep, the Cabal have a high-powered secret power. I actually upped it while rebalancing because the Town's secret power is so powerful. The Witches will likely end up making up half of the Town (including live and dead). Plus being a group of Masons who can protect and investigate is extremely powerful. Instead of toning that down, I decided to amp up everyone else.
The Cabal's power is designed to game the lynch, either by having someone else die when the Cabalist gets the most votes. Or by someone else being investigated as Cabal and then dropping the power before the other player gets lynched.
Cabal have to kill effectively 6 Witches, so they do not have an easy path. That reminds me, I need to make explicit that a Cabalist cannot use a doubled power the same time they use a regular power.
I hadn't thought about multiple Cabalists doubling the same player. My initial thought is it's okay. They'd both gain that player's powers, but if that player is targeted, they'd both be affected. It's a fair risk, I think.
I put a lone Freemason in just because some players like simple roles. (That is, players have requested Freemason in the past.) It's the closest to vanilla town. I could switch it to Coroner, though...
The Alpha Wolf secret power is also extremely powerful. By Day, they get to look for the Detective (with possible confusion with Vicar). By Night, they get to try to figure who is what role. That should make their targeting of the Night kill much more effective. This power will give them a good chance to discover Cabalists and Vampires secret powers.
With the new rules, Undead gain nothing by killing Wolves (or Cabal). So I think the number of Wolves should be enough.
It's true the Undead secret doesn't directly help them. But the main threats to Undead is Town investigations. Giving Vampires a chance to redirect those is potentially very useful.
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Post by catinasuit on Aug 13, 2012 10:22:34 GMT -8
I hadn't thought about multiple Cabalists doubling the same player. My initial thought is it's okay. They'd both gain that player's powers, but if that player is targeted, they'd both be affected. It's a fair risk, I think. Like I said, high value, high risk. I would consider it acceptable. You do need to sort out the cancelling though. If someone cancels their doppelganger, can they avoid the lynch of their doppelganger if they do so on the same Day. I put a lone Freemason in just because some players like simple roles. (That is, players have requested Freemason in the past.) It's the closest to vanilla town. I could switch it to Coroner, though... Coroner would be better, or possibly Scotsman given the number of redirects around. Freemason is a good vanilla, type role, but a bit sucky if its the only one in the game. The Alpha Wolf secret power is also extremely powerful. By Day, they get to look for the Detective (with possible confusion with Vicar). By Night, they get to try to figure who is what role. That should make their targeting of the Night kill much more effective. This power will give them a good chance to discover Cabalists and Vampires secret powers. And if the Alpha Wolf goes down, they are screwed...yet again. Could I suggest that if the Alpha Wolf goes down, it gets passed to the Omega Wolf, just because of too many games where the Alpha Wolf dies up front putting the Wolves at an immediate disadvantage. Or even that the Alpha gets to choose which of the Alpha or Omega gets to use the power for a Day/Night cycle? Or are you going to allow the Power to be inherited........ With the new rules, Undead gain nothing by killing Wolves (or Cabal). So I think the number of Wolves should be enough. It's true the Undead secret doesn't directly help them. But the main threats to Undead is Town investigations. Giving Vampires a chance to redirect those is potentially very useful. It could be powerful, but it could be harmful as well. It really only adds more fuzz to the mix. |
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Post by Pleonast on Aug 13, 2012 11:03:29 GMT -8
You do need to sort out the cancelling though. If someone cancels their doppelganger, can they avoid the lynch of their doppelganger if they do so on the same Day. Heh, I guess I need to be more clear. I do consider it possible (and intended) for a Cabalist to drop the doubling before it lynches them indirectly. I'll add a sentence in the power description. I think Scotsman will be too powerful in this game, so I'll swap in a Coroner. You missed the sentence that says "this power will always be inherited by the senior-most living Wolf, except for an Omega Wolf". So they'll lose the results from that Night/Day, but otherwise will be right back at it. Vampires can't harm each other. And killing the Necromancer accidentally is an intended risk for the Undead. Otherwise, Undead can't work at cross purposes. |
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Post by catinasuit on Aug 14, 2012 0:14:32 GMT -8
You missed the sentence that says "this power will always be inherited by the senior-most living Wolf, except for an Omega Wolf". So they'll lose the results from that Night/Day, but otherwise will be right back at it. Yes, I did and that's a good thing. Looking forward to this one, it is going to hurt a lot of brains with all the redirects and blocks. |
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Post by Pleonast on Aug 21, 2012 8:35:09 GMT -8
Time to start thinking about which roles to cut for less than 25 players.
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Post by Pleonast on Aug 21, 2012 11:00:52 GMT -8
Here's my initial thoughts at removing roles to get down to 20 players (as currently signed up).
25 players: as designed; 12 Town vs 4 Cabal vs 6 Wolves vs 3 Undead
24 players: remove 1. Coroner; 11-4-6-3
23 players: and remove 10. Cabalist; 11-3-6-3
22 players: and remove 23. Werewolf 4; 11-3-5-3
21 players: and remove 7. Warlock; 10-3-5-3
20 players: and remove 15. Vampire; 10-3-5-2
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Post by catinasuit on Aug 23, 2012 0:16:22 GMT -8
I agree on the reduction in roles, but I would suggest that the Undead secret power is reconsidered. The others are really powerful, but with only two undead they are definitely weaker than the other factions.
Of course: if you were being really evil: [redacted]. Although at that point, I would swap out the vicar instead of the warlock.
I've got a couple of other possible suggestions, if you are interested?
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Post by Pleonast on Aug 23, 2012 7:30:52 GMT -8
Sure more ideas are good, although time is short.
I'm also wondering if 3 Cabalists is enough when to eliminate potentially 6 Witches. But I think the potential for a Witch mislynch (who's going to believe the fourth claimed Witch) is enough to make it reasonable.
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Post by catinasuit on Aug 23, 2012 11:50:58 GMT -8
Sure more ideas are good, although time is short. I'm also wondering if 3 Cabalists is enough when to eliminate potentially 6 Witches. But I think the potential for a Witch mislynch (who's going to believe the fourth claimed Witch) is enough to make it reasonable. Actually, its the ability to gain killing powers through doppelganger that is more effective. However. people will believe the Witches as long as they are continually confirmed by the other Witches. If you wanted to have great fun, only start with two Witches, add the Warlock back in and start them off at a disadvantage, so they can only protect or investigate until they have gathered a third member. You don't specifically say the town starts with three witches. Undead secret power other options. [censored] |
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Post by Pleonast on Aug 23, 2012 13:50:08 GMT -8
Very creative ideas.
Starting with two Witches is too much a disadvantage because of the way their powers change with numbers.
Cabalists killing Witches with a stolen power is very good use of their power, but with only 3 tries to get a killing power instead of 4, it is harder. But I think it's okay. Cabal should also be able to mislynch someone, too, because of the switcheroo.
I'd rather not play around with the Zombies this game because I've just changed the mechanics. I need to get a better feel of the baseline before tweaking it.
[censored]
I like the kill-orders power, but with some changes. Maybe:
Vampire Secret Power: "Hypnosis"
Each Day, you may hypnotize one player and influence their future action. You have two options.
1. You change their target to one of your choice. The next time they use a non-secret targeted power (either that same Day or at any following time), they will instead target your implanted target. They will know they have been redirected.
2. You change their power to kill. The next time they use a non-secret targeted power (either that same Day or at any following time), they will instead kill their target. They will learn that their regular power has failed, as if blocked, and that they have killed (or attempted too).
If you hypnotize a player twice (once with each option) before they use a targeted power, both options will be in effect. Players who have no targeted powers cannot be hypnotized; you will know your power failed on them. This power cannot be blocked or redirected.
Edit: added clarification for double-hypnosis.
Edit2: victim knows they've been redirected and/or killed. Makes it more interesting, and makes the redirect less powerful then the Cabalist redirect.
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Post by catinasuit on Aug 24, 2012 0:26:44 GMT -8
Yup, happy with the secret power and it won't affect the Necro much, as they try to kill a dead player. ;D
Looking at the roles, every single one can have an active targeted secret power. Its nice to have both options, because when picking a Wolf, it would be best to use the redirect and for everyone else to be killers.
Picking an active Cabal or Witch could be really fun. Are you going to include self targeted kills as well, eg. if a Witchdoctor self protects under hypnosis they die. It should result in a couple of extra kills at least, probably against the town, which is what the Undead need. Should be great fun with a Detective around as well.
Just noticed that you took out the "attack the Vampire and die" rule as well. Not actually a bad idea as it was only really unfair to the Wolves.
As for the Witch power, you could limit it to just one or two group recruits instead of giving each Witch a recruit.
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Post by Pleonast on Aug 24, 2012 7:34:46 GMT -8
Okay, we've ended up with 21 players. No way I'm making the 21st player a Vampire now; too many extra kills. I think I'll bring back the Cabalist, they need the extra player more than the Wolves.
And of course a player can kill themself with a kill power, unless there's something else to prevent it (like a Vampire can't suicide). Oh, I should make clear to the Vampire that the kill-hypnosis cannot kill a Vampire. So they really have nothing to fear.
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Post by catinasuit on Aug 24, 2012 9:23:26 GMT -8
With up to 6 possible Witches, I think the extra Cabal is the right thing. Otherwise it would have to be another Wolf. Then again, with the Wolf Secret Power, it should give them a good chance to identify and kill the Detective before any reveal.
The new Undead Secret Power is plenty strong enough, they shouldn't need another Vampire, otherwise it would be swap the Vampire in and go back to the old Secret Power. I prefer this one, though.
Looking forward to seeing how this one plays out with the new ruleset....
Game On.
PS: You might want to delete the extra Secret power suggestions in the above posts before anyone else gets here.
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Post by catinasuit on Aug 25, 2012 12:12:58 GMT -8
Hmm, are you really going penalise peekercpa on Night Zero, a little harsh perhaps. Oh, and saw the vote program as well. Strictly speaking, no-one should have a penalty vote until after Day 1 has passed, at which point it should come into play. I'll leave you to fix the script.  |
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Post by Pleonast on Aug 27, 2012 11:05:25 GMT -8
I don't feel bad giving penalties in Night Zero. Everyone has their role; the game's started.
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Post by catinasuit on Aug 28, 2012 4:15:18 GMT -8
And so the game starts, it will be interesting to see how people handle the much shorter Day/Night cycle. I wonder if Kid V will do the same as I did in the last game and reverse vote.  |
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Post by Pleonast on Aug 28, 2012 7:49:30 GMT -8
I wonder how long someone mentions the hammer and filibuster mechanics?
Exactly! Multivoting can make it much harder for someone to be slightly suspicious to many players but not suspicious enough to be at the top of any list.
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Post by catinasuit on Aug 28, 2012 23:51:04 GMT -8
I think people are happy with the Hammer and it is very likely to come into play after a positive Witch investigation if one is outed.
Filibuster, I'm not so sure, although perhaps on Day 1/2 when someone claims Witch at the end. The problem is trying to get enough people together to activate it. It may come also come in useful towards the end of game when trying to prevent a group from winning.
Thinking about it, why doesn't everyone just use it at the start of each Day to give themselves extra time to get people to speak and extend the Day by 1 weekday each time. They are only three weekdays long instead of five.
~~~~~
I do have a suggestion for your penalty votes:
For each Day/Night cycle a player goes through without gaining a penalty vote, a single penalty vote will be removed from them on the following Dawn, if they have any.
I can understand why you would want to keep it permanent on a player, but it can mean a minor infraction at the start of the game can lose the side the game later on. Give the players a chance to redeem themselves through good play, it's what Mafia is all about.
But it does also mean that Day End penalty votes are in effect for the entirity of that Day and the next, and if someone does not participate for long periods, it will still build up.
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Post by Pleonast on Aug 29, 2012 7:14:03 GMT -8
I was originally thinking about removing penalty votes for good behavior based on time, but I'm going a different route. I'll let the players vote each Night to remove one penalty vote from one player. It's more game-centric that way; a player will have to convince others its worthwhile to remove their penalty.
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Post by catinasuit on Aug 29, 2012 10:25:48 GMT -8
Nice way to add an extra level of complexity, its a good touch.
Other than that no-one seems to really be stepping forward. I guess we will have to wait until we get close to lynching time for more fun and games.
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Post by Pleonast on Aug 29, 2012 12:22:02 GMT -8
I expect a lot votes thrown around near the end. Especially if a few players force Scuba Ben to claim.
One other added benefit of a Nightly forgiveness vote: it gives players something to do at Night that's not too stressing.
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Post by catinasuit on Aug 29, 2012 23:49:14 GMT -8
It's good to see that the Cabal and Witches are using their secret boards to work things out.
The Wolves should really use the Alpha secret power out of habit, even if there is not much reason to use it on Day 1. Night 1 will be a necessity though.
Chances are that peeker will get lynched especially if Scuba Ben claims. Of course at that point, peeker can use a redirect to lynch someone else, which as Scuba Ben has claimed, could be hilarious if peeker times it right.
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