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Post by texcat on Apr 12, 2013 11:38:49 GMT -8
I am surprised that they are going after Idle. If I were scum, I would have killed Ryjae in the hopes that it might look like the Idle cleansing killed her.
If BillMc successfully thwarts the kill tonight, will the devils have a kill tomorrow night? The kill tonight is their reward for sending someone to hell, right?
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Post by Pleonast on Apr 12, 2013 11:56:16 GMT -8
will idle going to hell give the game to the devils? Not quite. The Devils will win when all the living players are dead. And they cannot win if any players survive. If BillMc successfully thwarts the kill tonight, will the devils have a kill tomorrow night? The kill tonight is their reward for sending someone to hell, right? The Devil Death gets a bonus kill whenever they (and not any other Devil) claim a soul. So if they do not kill ToNight and since no one is in Purgatory, there won't be a Night kill Tomorrow Night.
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Post by billmc on Apr 12, 2013 12:15:38 GMT -8
ok - i'll stick with protecting whoever they try and kill - pm sent
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Post by billmc on Apr 13, 2013 0:45:06 GMT -8
darn, ryjae is going to suicide, the devils will claim him
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Post by billmc on Apr 14, 2013 23:44:52 GMT -8
So if Idle doesn't vote and gets a 4th penalty - and then mod killed - where does he go?
tho i see colby has now voted idle
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Post by Pleonast on Apr 15, 2013 7:40:48 GMT -8
So if Idle doesn't vote and gets a 4th penalty - and then mod killed - where does he go? tho i see colby has now voted idle The fourth penalty simply kills a player, who is then processed as normal. Since Idle has no sins, they'd go to Heaven.
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Post by billmc on Apr 15, 2013 10:38:53 GMT -8
lol - so i was right then - should just have picked up 4 penalties and skipped off to heaven early in the game
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Post by billmc on Apr 15, 2013 10:42:00 GMT -8
so as it stands, there is a tie between ryjae and idle, so with the tie break rule on the number of sins, (and the devils are voting for ryjae) then ryjae gets killed, goes to purgatory idle gets modkilled with 4 penalties - goes to heaven idle angled ryjae colby does a no lynch tomorrow and?
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Post by Pleonast on Apr 16, 2013 6:55:47 GMT -8
Poor colby. How does one play one-handed Mafia? I've asked them what their plans are. If they intend to kill or lynch themself, then the Devils win. Otherwise, the Devils lose. While Death will claim ryjae (you have to give the Devils credit for figuring out so many Cardinal Sins), with Idle in Heaven, the bonus kill will be blocked.
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Post by billmc on Apr 16, 2013 6:56:04 GMT -8
where's idle? surely he should be in heaven and can be ryjae's guardian angel?
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Post by billmc on Apr 16, 2013 6:56:49 GMT -8
so all down to colby
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Post by Idle Thoughts on Apr 16, 2013 8:47:41 GMT -8
I'm here... what do I do exactly? Vote to protect ryjae?
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Post by Idle Thoughts on Apr 16, 2013 8:51:16 GMT -8
Poor colby. How does one play one-handed Mafia? I've asked them what their plans are. If they intend to kill or lynch themself, then the Devils win. Otherwise, the Devils lose. While Death will claim ryjae (you have to give the Devils credit for figuring out so many Cardinal Sins), with Idle in Heaven, the bonus kill will be blocked. So...let me get this straight. If everyone dies, the Devils win? Is that how it was from the beginning? If so, I don't see how Town could have won passed all the Devils (in game) being killed....because if only non-Devils remain (as was the case a few Days ago), of course players are going to keep killing each other off. Granted the game hasn't ended yet, players will keep offing each other until the game has ended....because there's no reason not to. So I don't really expect Colby will vote to keep himself in the game here...the game SEEMS to be "Everyone has to die". Just...seems off... or I'm not understanding something, I guess.
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Post by Idle Thoughts on Apr 16, 2013 9:06:27 GMT -8
And a few things that were said before... If this is him trying to get people to send people into Heaven, he's an idiot because he has sin and won't go directly to Heaven. Well, see, I didn't know that. It was a hidden facet of the game. As far as I know nobody but the mod (and dead, now-spoiled) players knew that you get sin from not voting for a Devil if they are lynched. Based on what I knew and what I could assume from what I was told, I don't think it was that bad of a plan. And then we have the two quotes below (which are pretty close to saying the same thing)(well, not really, but I have the same point to make to both of them). Idle's mistake was he thought his information of "Christians that die without sin will go directly to Heaven (this is good)." was more important than "a. Lynching or killing Devils will always help your team." It's not, and I argued against that while I was still alive. Too bad nobody listened to me. Idle's plan was selfish and terrible. He essentially gave everybody who wasn't him an extra two sins in the form of an unneeded sacrifice that doesn't help the Town with their win condition at all. At best it's a hindrance to the Devils with one win condition. This is, essentially, why Town is supposed to play as a team and unit and why a single Town person making executive decisions is almost unilaterally always bad for Town. Idle's move may have cost Town the game if they can't recover from it. This kind of game was pretty screwed up to begin with. Sorry, Pleonast...no offense and I usually love your games....but when you tell people "GOING TO HEAVEN IS GOOD" then players are going to assume just what it says...that it's a good thing. And furthermore...if they are thrust in a game without any clear hints or solutions to a wincon, I don't think it's too far off to ASSUME that "Going to Heaven" may be the only way to win. I mean, how else would we have figured it out? Hell, I lasted longer in the game than 90 percent of all players and I still am not exactly clear on how we win, even after being spoiled. ..all I do know is...if you give Town all that we were given (which wasn't much) and one of those things is "Going to Heaven is good", people are going to start to think it comes down to HOW MANY PEOPLE ARE IN HEAVEN AT THE END... ESPECIALLY IF THERE AREN'T EVEN ANY MORE DEVILS IN THE GAME, AS WAS THE CASE 4 DAYS AGO. With only non devils left, what else are we supposed to think? Now obviously we didn't KNOW there weren't any Devils remaining, but as I said in the post above this one....if the game hasn't ended, what are we supposed to think? I just think it's a very tricky to pull it that way. "Ok, there are no Devils left in the game". So what are we supposed to do, as Town, to win??? I'm still not clear on it. What, no lynch over and over and over? I mean, we tried a no lynch on the day before Ryjae and I died and it didn't work...so I don't know. I just don't know how anyone could have expected to know "Okay, nobody kill anyone else"... If players are alive and the game hasn't ended, they're going to keep lynching people thinking Devils are still alive. And even if they come to the conclusion that all the rest are Town (AS WE DID), I really think the conclusion most would reach would be "Okay, I guess everyone needs to die" rather than "Everyone needs to survive".
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Post by Pleonast on Apr 16, 2013 9:09:01 GMT -8
The non-Devils win conditions: 1. You must stop the Devils from winning. You don't exactly know what that entails, but here are some hints: a. Lynching or killing Devils will always help your team. b. Removing your sins will always help your team, but increasing them may or may not be beneficial. c. Never reveal to another player nor allow another player to figure out your Cardinal Sin.
There are several hints that eliminating the Devils is not sufficient to stopping them. First, there are hints of what else needs to be done to win. Second, this was billed as a multi-level, player-after-death game (including some players with more information about that) which kind of implies that death is not final.
The Devils win conditions: You win if 1. There are no living non-Devil players and each Devil has claimed at least one soul. or 2. At least half of all living players are Devils and at least one-third of all non-Devil players have had their soul claimed by any Devil. or 3. At least two-thirds of all non-Devil players have had their soul claimed by any Devil.
The Devils must meet requirements both how well they played the traditional Mafia game (number of living scum vs number of living town), plus requirements on the number of souls collected. Although Devils did very poorly on the first part, they've done very well on the second.
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Post by Idle Thoughts on Apr 16, 2013 9:13:55 GMT -8
So, basically, Town has no win conditions. They only win if the Devils don't win? Because that's what I'm getting from what you're saying and reading those win cons.
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Post by Pleonast on Apr 16, 2013 9:22:36 GMT -8
Idle, there were clear hints on how non-Devils win.
It is good for non-Devils to go to Heaven. The players there have really helped the non-Devils with well-placed protections. (Although a few players dropped the ball by disappearing before they used their one-shot power.) It just that "it's good to go Heaven" is not on a hint on how to win.
And, yes, the game is defined by how well the Devils do, with the non-Devils in opposition.
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Post by polluxoil on Apr 16, 2013 10:25:42 GMT -8
I just don't know how anyone could have expected to know "Okay, nobody kill anyone else"... If players are alive and the game hasn't ended, they're going to keep lynching people thinking Devils are still alive. And even if they come to the conclusion that all the rest are Town (AS WE DID), I really think the conclusion most would reach would be "Okay, I guess everyone needs to die" rather than "Everyone needs to survive". First off, Idle, I apologize if anything I said offended you. I was a little frustrated with how the game was going at the time and when I get frustrated I act a little hostile. That being said, I actually agree with you. I think this game was 95% great for what it was. The problem lied with the Town not being able to achieve a win state. The fact is, without anything to tell them differently, if the game doesn't end they're going to assume they still have to do something to achieve their win state: likely somebody is still alive that needs to be killed. I think this game proves that for mafia to be balanced, all sides need a condition that triggers endgame. It's horribly unbalanced in that the Devils will never concede because all they have to do is wait for the Town to kill somebody. Especially with the mentions of recruitment and knowing the mechanics of Heaven and Hell, there was almost no reason for Town to stop lynching (which everyone agrees is the Town's greatest power) and there was no indication given that there were a limited number of Devils. Maybe if the recruitment red herring wasn't included, the Town may have come to a consensus that there were no Devils left. But that's a big if. Look at the situation right now: Colby is the only person left alive. He knows he's Christian. But the game is still going, and everything essentially hinges on him not voting to lynch himself or killing himself. And yet, there's a very real possibility that he could lynch himself because the game is still going, so for him he can still think the end game hasn't been triggered and might think that going to Heaven is how the end game is triggered. I'm trying to think of the right metaphor to use here, but the fact is Pleo, if you ran this game as-is with new people 100 times, I would bet 99 times out of 100 the Devils would win because the game would always just keep going until the Town body count reaches 0.
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Post by billmc on Apr 16, 2013 10:30:58 GMT -8
yeah, that's the crux.
Anyway, Idle - you need to PM pleo saying you'll use the angel power on ryjae
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Post by Pleonast on Apr 16, 2013 11:23:21 GMT -8
Well, I didn't think players would suicide as easily as they did. (Or town bussing town for that matter.) Especially when it came down to a few confirmed players. Why did ryjae suicide, after all? None of their win conditions suggest with lynching oneself is helpful. I was ready to call it in favor of the non-Devils quite a while ago. (See previous comments in this thread.) But the non-Devils made two mistakes: many violated their hint c, and they kept mislynching. This made it unfair to the Devils to stop the game, because of the continued mistakes of the non-Devils. Anyway, Idle - you need to PM pleo saying you'll use the angel power on ryjae That would've been a mistake. The Devils had several Nights to guess and would've probably got it anyway. Better to give up the soul and then block the bonus kill. Then the outcome of the game is up to colby's decision to suicide or not.
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Post by Pleonast on Apr 17, 2013 7:03:55 GMT -8
Good to see colby's base instinct of not to lynch themself kicked in. I've called the game for the non-Devils.
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Post by Idle Thoughts on Apr 17, 2013 9:18:25 GMT -8
No worries, Pollux, no offense taken. I just like to follow up on comments about my gameplay afterwards, haha.
I understand a bit better now.
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